How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted: 07/14/2006
How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
By Bob DeWaay
“Do not quench the Spirit;” (1Thessalonians 5:19)
In 1986 we had Dave Hunt speak at our church on the topic of his book, The Seduction of Christianity. After this event some membersleft our church. One of them was asked why andanswered, “Because you have quenched the Holy Spirit.” In her estimation, holding a conference to warn people about serious false teachings was something that was a hindrance to the working of the Holy Spirit. She believed that the Holy Spirit worked through unity and that the best way to have unity wasto give a hearing to any and every teaching without correcting what is false.
Others think that quenching the Spirit means putting restraints on spontaneous outbursts, actions, or utterances that some might attribute to the Holy Spirit. Their idea is this: opena free style church meeting; allow everyone toact or speak according to their subjective impressions; and assume all activities are from the Spirit. This, according to them, is the best way to insure that a damper is not put on the work of the Holy Spirit (the term “quench” here means literally to put out a fire and figuratively to suppress or stifle).
I propose a radical approach. Ratherthan guess what “quench” means, I propose that we firstconsult the Scriptures to determine the nature of the work of the Holy Spirit. Here is a list of some of His works thatI compiled:
To cause us to be born again (John 3:6, 7)
To empower believers to overcome sin (Romans 8:13)
To carry the true children of God along from death to life; and ultimately to glory (Romans 8:11-14)
To intercede through and for believers (Romans 8:26, 27)
To testify of Christ (John 15:26)
To teach and guide us into the truth as taught by Christ (John 14:26; 16:13)
To convict the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:7, 8)
To empower believers to testify about the truth of the Gospel of Christ (Acts 1:8; 4:33)
To give gifts to members of the church so that they may serve one another (Romans 12:4-25)
This list is not exhaustive, but itcertainly contains many important descriptions of the work of the Holy Spirit. Given these activities of the Holy Spirit, whatever we would do to suppress or stifle them would be a failure to obey the directive of 1Thessalonians 5:19. So we have our marching orders—we know what He does and what we are to do.
Studying this list and contemplating its significance, it occurred to me that the typical seeker-sensitive church service quenches the work of the Holy Spirit. For example, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit bears witness to Him. In a gospel centric church service, our hymns and other music reflect our emphasis on the person and work of Christ. We sing about the blood atonement, God’s mercy through the cross, God’s grace, Christ’s resurrection, the attributes of God, and other themes steeped in Biblical doctrine. The seeker church, on the other hand, lays aside these themes and emphasizes entertaining and uplifting music (according to their definition of “uplifting”) about positive themes of life that the “unchurched” can relate to. Since the Holy Spirit testifies about Christ and leads us into truth, worship music that contains themes about the person of Christ and Biblical truth are also in accord with the work of God’s Spirit. Those who are born again will rejoice in this because they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and their hearts are encouraged and empowered by His work.
Consider another practice of most seeker oriented churches: the replacement of the study of the Bible with man centered programs and discussion groups—often fine-tuned according to demographics. There may a group for single mothers, a group for divorced men, or groups based on personal problems people may have in common, or groups based on other factors distinctive to some segment ofpeople. Having gathered according to factors that have nothing to do with having been adopted into the family of God (another work of the Holy Spirit – see Romans 8:15, 16), people discuss their situations according to a broadreligious point of view. This amounts to principles of Christian living based on quasi-biblical ideas, applied to one and all whether or not they are born of the Holy Spirit.
Conversely, when the Bible is studied by one and all, regardless of their age, gender, or personal demographic, the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures nurture, convict, encourage, and transform the minds of those who can receive and believe the things of the Spirit because He has opened their hearts and minds (see 1Corinthians 2:1-15). The Holy Spirit graciously speaks to us through the truths He has inspired and progressively changes the redeemed into the image of Christ. To remove the direct and careful study and discussion of the Bible and to replace it with discussion groups that ask, “what do you think and how do you feel” rather than, “what has God said,” is to quench the Holy Spirit.
Most of the processes and programs of the typical seeker church have nothing to do with the work of the Holy Spirit. This includes the definitions and qualifications of leadership. Many modern churches choose elders not based on the qualifications revealed in 1Timothy 3 and Titus 1; but based on their business management skills. For example, Titus 1:9 says that the overseer must be, “. . . holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.” These activities are directly related to the work of the Holy Spirit who leads us into truth and away from error. The business management professionals who may still be called “elders” in various churches often have no Spirit enabled abilities to do the most important jobs that the Bible gives elders the charge to do.
The shocking thingis that, having stripped the church of nearly every activity that is directly related to the work of the Holy Spirit, many are calling this “revival.” Quenching the Holy Spirit at every turn by making a church that will work just fine populated by the unregenerate is not revival—it is apostasy. The unity of the Spirit which we are to preserve, according to Paul in Ephesians 4:3, is not preserved by allowing wolves and false teachers into the church and neglecting the true work of the Holy Spirit that comes through the unadulterated gospel and the inerrant Word of God.
Rather than justifying each and every activity of the church vis-à-vis the corporate mission statement as the Church Growth experts advocate, we need to justify our activities by comparing them to the clear descriptions of the work of the Holy Spirit given in the Bible. Will this activity convict the world of sin, encourage the faithful Christian, lead us into all truth, empower believers to overcome sin, empower believers to preach the gospel, and cause us to worship God in spirit and in truth? If these matters became the criteria, we would see true revival in our churches not just a lot of human activity, devoid of the Spirit, that we call “revival.”
To listen to a message on the matter of the work of the Holy Spirit and true prophetic utterances go here and choose the July 9th sermon on 1Thessalonians 5:16-22.
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Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 12/27/06 06:52:00 AM
Age 58, MO
The Church is, by New Testament definition, a fellowship of believers, not a mix of believers and unbelievers, making the term "seeker-sensitive Church" an oxymoron. A "seeker" is, by definition, not one of the fellowship. The New Testament is clear on WHY believers should assemble and it's primarily for their own benefit, to wit, the "building up of the saints." Believers are in combat with the world its views almost 24/7 and they need time together to get their head screwed back on straight, to rest from the fight and be with "one another of the same mind." Whether the unbelievers are seekers, wolves, or "tares" is mostly irrelevant - they are just as much strangers to the Church as the Church is to them in their world. Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 11/06/06 04:23:06 AM
Age 44, U
Good article. I've been in a 'seeker sensitive church' and I have found the services shallow, to say the least.
The Bible is used, and to be honest, there is little to fault or to diagree with. But, you can't help but feel something isn't right with the whole service.
Then you realise it is all soulish and not spritual. It is not lead by the Holy Spirit, but is done to entertain the masses.
In closing, I'll leave with a scripture.
1 Cor 10v31: Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
God bless. Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 08/24/06 12:17:06 AM
Age 56, MN
Bob,
I like your article, but I'm confused by the paragraph on music. Is it okay to have music with Christian themes or not? Our fundamental Bible-believing church played Folsom City Blues by Johnny Cash at a city parade this summer, because it has the "theme" of a man regretting his sins. They also played Christian songs, such as "I'll Fly Away." They wanted to appeal to non-believers in the crowd. For some reason, I don't have peace about this, so I am studying Scripture & researching articles. I also talked to our 2 pastors. Could you or anyone else out there please help me? Maybe I'm wrong Thanks & God bless! -Cathy Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/21/06 11:57:31 PM
Age 53, OK
First of all the Word reminds us that there is no one that seeks after God. The lost cannot worship in spirit or truth, and the purpose of the gathering of the Church is to worship, to study the word, to edify, to exercise spiritual gifts, etc.
A seeker service might be something to use to attract the unchurched for evangelism, but it cannot be THE meeting of the Church for worship and instruction.
The root of the matter is failing to properly understand the sovereignty of God, the power of the gospel, and the authority of Scripture.
So long as the Church is splintered and lacking discernment these man-focused activities will be pursued.
Rather we must be about the business of doing God's work God's way.
For evangelism consider how Paul preached on Mars Hill. He went to them at their event and took their error to point them to the truth by proclaiming truth. Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/19/06 09:56:56 PM
Age 54, MN
Many churches do not call themselves "seeker sensitive" but the influence from this movement has spread to so many churches. The end result is the unregenerate sinners often running the church. My last two churches,fit this description. Thanks for your wisdom Pastor DeWaay. Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/19/06 09:56:14 AM
Age 24, MO
i feel like the term "seeker sensitive" is a bad way to describe this movement. do people not go to a particular church based on the style of worship, the style of preaching, whether or not they like the sunday school, whether or not the church's doctrine is in line with their's, etc? does this not make any church "seeker sensitive"? to apply a general term to what most evangelicals like to make such a specific sin, i feel (uh-oh, there's that phrase), is wrong. if you want to point fingers, please do so in a way that all can know what you're pointing at. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/23/06 07:33:32 AM
Age 52, VA
The Bible says that - none seek God, no not one. The only seeker is Jesus himself. He came to seek and save the lost. Once a lost person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit he now has an internal desire to seek the things of God, apart from the Biblical Gospel, nothing external is required. Salvation is purely the work of God, not the work of man. Now, the Church's job is to feed that formerly lost person with the milk/meat of Biblical doctrine (the Bible calls this discipleship). All of the fluff and frivolity of the "seeker-sensitive" movement is one of the ways that the enemy sows tares among the wheat by using man designed external means to cajole individuals into becoming a "believer." This is Finney style synergism at its worst. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/21/06 10:55:51 PM
Age 34, MO
MO,
You state that you "feel like the term seeker sensitive is a bad way to describe this movement".
This is like saying you feel that Ron was out of line when he agreed to refer to his friend Jim by the name Jim promoted himself to be--which was Jim. In other words, those who started this man-centered movement are the same ones who began promoting themselves to the unchurched as "seeker-sensitive".
Now, if you know of other churches that promote themselves as "seeker-sensitive", but who are Christ-centered in their doctrine, then consider this:
They are sending a mixed message, for the gospel of Christ is not "sensitive" to any of the wants of sinful man. Jesus Christ offended virtually everyone in the religious establishment of His day, and yet He was INCARNATE love and truth. The Church that boldy proclaims the gospel of Christ is anything but "seeker-sensitive". Rather it is faitful, and most likely offensive to most "seekers". Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/19/06 09:24:10 AM
Age 27, TX
I don't agree with the 'purpose driven' philosophy, but I DO agree with seeking after God and His will for our lives, which I guess means I am a seeker. I have gone to many 'spirit filled, charismatic churches' and have only seen one that I considered to be an unscriptural free for all. The others believed that all things be 'done decently and in order.' Ultimately, the pastor and elders decided through Scripture and the Spirit if something was out of line or unscriptural. There have been individuals who were asked to stop certain behaviours.
In one church if you felt that God had a message for the church (ie- a prophetic word) you had to tell the pastor and he decided wither or not it would be apropriate for you to speak. I am assuming this begand because of an out of turn 'prophet' but the new system seemed to work wonderfully well.
I would consider the church I go to now a seeker church, but not experience driven or purpose driven. Our elders and decons, as the other churches I have been a member of, were chosen based on their spiritual strengths and not their administrational talents- there are specific offices for those.
Sarah T Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/23/06 01:10:22 AM
Age 34, MO
Hello again Sarah T.,
This is a bit off topic, but I am curious about something. When posting at one of Dewaay's earlier articles, you stated: "I intend on asking her (Beth Moore) if she KNEW what they (Be Still DVD participants) reportedly believe/teach and if she initially knew they would be on the DVD (one of the interviews I read indicated she did not, which was poor discernment to ask/research before being a part of such a project.)..." So my question is this: Did you write to her with your questions? If so, have you heard back from her or someone at her ministry? I'm sure Pastor Dewaay won't mind you posting your answer on this thread, but if you'd rather email me personally, you can. owcgallatin@hotmail.com Thanks, Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 08/04/06 01:02:49 PM
Age 34, MO
So again Sarah T,
You told us you would be contacting Beth Moore. Did you? Did you hear back? If you did not write to her or her ministry my question is, why not? If you have heard from her or her ministry, why are you not sharing it with those whom you said you would? Maybe you simply wrote to them, and they never responded? Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/18/06 11:03:32 PM
Age 43, IN
Excellent article. I was beginning to think I was the only one out here that was noticeing what was going on in the Church today. I agree that the seeker church does not use the Holy Spirit to convict people of sin. They don't want to offend or upset people so they conform to a "seeker sensitive" programs. Your article Does a very good job of explaining what the church is doing and what they need to do. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: How the Seeker Sensitive Movement Quenches the Holy Spirit
Posted On: 07/19/06 01:10:09 PM
Age 32, FL
I was just wondering...how exactly do you "use" the Holy Spirit to convict someone of something? It seems to me that God convicts whom He will, regardless of how I "use" Him. Just a thought. Click here to reply to this post
Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/17/06 11:07:23 AM
Age 39, TX
I am curious to know what research Pastor DeWaay has done to support the following statement, Most of the processes and programs of the typical seeker church have nothing to do with the work of the Holy Spirit. Letters from disgruntled ex-church members are certainly valid in most cases, but I dont think they represent the vast majority of churches. They are victims of pastors who did a poor job of feeding their flock. Some folks just dont like any change in their church, even if it is a very biblical change. I am a member of a seeker-sensitive church and have attended several others as a visitor. In all of them, nearly every worship song exhibits the doctrines he lists under a gospel-centric church. The man-centered programs he discussed are designed to bring folks together and work through their problems with Scripture, rather than secular techniques. A few months ago, Pastor DeWaay was on Jan Markells radio show discussing Rick Warren and another pastor from the show, Rolf Fure, pointed out that very few churches have converted to a Purpose-Driven franchise, but rather the majority have used Rick Warrens teaching as a tool, but have not changed very much. I am arguing that the Purpose-Driven conversion or the man-centered gospel changes in churches are few. The majority of churches are still very gospel-centered. I would suggest that if your church hinders anyone from coming to your church to hear the true Gospel, you might need to make a change and you might be quenching the Spirit. I am not suggesting that your church growing numerically is good, because that is not the real indicator of a successful church, but rather a successful church is one where members are growing spiritually and reaching their community with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Pastor DeWaays list of what quenches the Spirit is accurate, but it is just not what is happening in the majority of seeker-sensitive churches. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/19/06 01:20:12 PM
Age 32, FL
I find it humorous that so many folks make these type of claims, "seeker sensitives are doing this", "traditional churches are doing that", "we should all be doing such and such". Give it a rest...none of you spend enough time in any church other than your own to make a judgement about what anyone else is doing. This is all just more Chicken Little "the sky is falling" generalizations about what you think other people are or aren't doing.
As for SS churches having Bible studies for certain demographic groups, just what exactly is traditional Sunday School if not "Bible studies for certain demographic groups"? Once again, if it isn't my way, it isn't right, cause after all...I say so.
So very sad to see the church so busy stabbing its own...of course, you don't think they are your own, so that makes it ok, 'cause Jesus told us to kill all the infidels. Oh, wait, sorry wrong group of fanatical religious zealots...Christians are supposed to be people of grace, maybe if we exhibited that a bit more often we wouldn't be the laughing stock (or greatest fear depending the perspective) of the civilized world. Click here to reply to this post
I must thank you for your witty and articulate response. I am truly better for having considered your deep and meaningful comments on this...Oh, wait. Never mind. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/18/06 08:50:28 PM
Age 38, MO
When trying to warn people of the purpose driven materials, I have heard many times the same thing you say which is, "our church hasn't changed. We are still Biblical, we're just using rick warren's tools. What I say to them is, his belief system is not Biblical so how can we use his stuff and say we're not straying. He uses new age authors and books in his materials and at his church, he uses them as references, books from authors who got their materials from spirit guides, he's recommending these tools to all the other churches he's partnered with. He recommends breath prayers, mantra meditation, uses psychology methods from people who don't believe Jesus is the only way to God, (C.G. Jung). You need to look that man up and find out about him. There's too much to post here. Suffice to say, rick warren works with, recommends, and uses material from people who believe the Bible is not inerrant, all religions lead to God etc. People that are trying to warn others about him are really not trying to be divisive or cruel. Most of his teachings stray away from the Bible and that can be proven. I really do care so much about those who are caught up in this and just want them to research for themselves. That's what I did and you will be so shocked. Please don't assume that because everyone is using his stuff then it must be ok. We're supposed to test the spirits, remember. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/21/06 11:27:02 PM
Age 34, MO
38,MO:
Well stated from my fellow Missourian. I like your discernment. What city do you live in if I might ask? My email is owcgallatin@hotmail.com
Blessings,
Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/19/06 01:57:26 PM
Age 39, TX
I have researched Rick Warren both from his speaking and his writing and compared that with articles like this. I think the items you have listed are not supported by what he actually says but are rather a summary of what other say about him. I have never heard of a preacher who did not mention, or use a quote, or tell a story of someone who is out side evangelicalism. It is o.k. for him to befriend a non-Christian and even recommend that persons work but we all need to be careful about how we use that. God has created worldly concepts and institutions that can be edifying. His belief system is biblical from his doctrinal statement, to his books, to what he says. You might not like his style, but that does not mean its not biblical. If you find a direct statement from him where he denies the authority of the Bible or denies salvation in Christ alone, please list it here. Our church has never used his church or programs but we are fully seeker-sensitive and let me describe what that is. Twenty years ago my pastor met a farmer who would not come to church. He asked him why and he said he was embarrassed because he did not own a suit. My pastor slowly began doing away with his suit so that farmer would feel more comfortable. Had the farmer said he did not believe in the truth of Scripture, my pastor would not have changed on that issue. You see the difference? Not every church has to do this or get rid of their organs. My reply to Pastor DeWaay is in accusing all seeker sensitive churches of quenching the Holy Spirit. He made a blanket statement that is flatly not supported. - Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/23/06 01:34:00 AM
Age 34, MO
Darren,
I just re-read my first comment to your post and feel I must apologize and ask forgiveness for repeatedly pointing out how I felt about your research on Warren. You obviously know where I still stand, but it could have been done in a more loving mannar on my part. I am sorry.--Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Darren,
FIRST: You state, "I have researched Rick Warren both from his speaking and his writing and compared that with articles like this. I think the items you have listed are not supported by what he actually says but are rather a summary of what other say about him." One of the items listed was breath prayers. In all your "research" are you errroneously suggesting Warren doesn't promote breath prayers, or are you mistakingly suggesting breath prayers are not Eastern Mysticism? Either option reveals you have not done your "research". Additionally, Warren does teach in his writing (PDL) that God is "in everything and everyone". Please show me in Scripture where this pantheistic notion is taught. It is not, period. Again, not good "research" on your part. SECOND: You state, "It is o.k. for him (a preacher) to befriend a non-Christian and even recommend that persons work but we all need to be careful about how we use that." If a preacher were trying to get his flock to understand the faulty teachings of an unregenerate, sure he could recommend his/her works. But, when a pastor claims to take his reader on a "spiritual journey" (like Warren does in PDL), then quotes favorably and/or recommends the works of unregenerates, he is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible, period. THIRD: You state, "His belief system is biblical from his doctrinal statement, to his books, to what he says." You honestly could not have done more shoddy "research" my friend. Email me, and I'll send you countless quotes by Warren that are anything but biblical. By the way, doctrinal statements are useless. I know of many false prophets/teachers today who have orthodox doctrinal statements. FOURTH: You state, "You might not like his style, but that does not mean its not biblical." Style is not the issue; substance is. FIFTH: You state, "Our church has never used his church or programs but we are fully seeker-sensitive and let me describe what that is." Darren, it is a given that Pastor Dewaay is not labeling churches who have liberty in attire, "seeker sensitive". Your argument is a straw man, and not a good one at that.--Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/23/06 12:07:58 AM
Age 39, TX
Jimmy: I would respectfully request that you tone down your posts a little. I am not sure you would talk like this if we were having coffee. It is hard to converse with you when you are so condescending. I probably should have worded it a little differently, but I meant that from my research or what I have seen and read of Rick Warren is what I am basing my statements. I do not claim to support everything Rick Warren says or does nor do I claim my research is scholary. More directly to the point of my original post was that Pastor DeWaay states that seeker-sensitive churches quench the spirit. I dont think he supported his point. I have heard him on several interviews and I think his exegetics are rock-solid, but his application is misapplied. For example, breath prayers. He and others would correctly state that using breath prayers to reach an altered state of consciousness is unbiblical. However, a breath prayer, such as God thank you for this day or God thank you for your creation is biblical and that is Rick Warren is suggesting. Luke 18:13 describes a breath prayer. Therefore, I would compare this example with this article by Pastor DeWaay as being proper exegetics misapplied. By the way, the emergent church is suggesting that doctrinal statements are useless so you might want to be careful on that one. You correctly state that false teachers use them but that does not mean that I have to throw them all out. -Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/24/06 12:33:43 AM
Age 34, MO
Darren,
Now that we've mended fences:) let's get back to the topic of Rick Warren and seeker-sensitive, for they are both important issues. FIRST TO SEEKER SENSITIVE: If a person tells you in conversation he would like to come to "church" but is concerned that he doesn't have the proper attire, then of course it's appropriate to assure him that is not a concern at your congregation. But, for anyone to advertise candles, donuts & coffee, music style, clothing attire, etc.. as a way of enticing someone to visit a fellowship is not a method found in Scripture. Does it work in some instances? Maybe. But is this God's way of doing things or man's way? I submit to you that a fellowship who evangelizes in this mannar, a manner not found in Scripture, is a fellowship most likely unwilling to submit to God's authority in matters of doctrine. Without sound doctrine, all else is window dressing. We don't find the Apostle Paul wooing people to meetings where the gospel would be proclaimed. He understood that his job was to simply go into the world preaching and teaching the gospel, leaving the rest to the Holy Spirit to use that planted Word to convict of sin that can lead to repentance, then belief, then desire to be in fellowship with other believers. We would all do well to get back to God's ordained means of reaching the lost. NOW TO RICK WARREN: This man is dangerous because of his affiliations with New Age teachers and organizations, his proof-texting of Scripture, his written insertions of New Age phrases, his promotion of contemplative "prayer", his promotion of dominionist theology, etc... He is adept at mixing truth and error which is one reason many Christians are fooled by him. You've heard the phrase, "1% arsenic mixed with 99% pure water still kills 100% of the time". This is the case with Warren. Now, Luke 18:13 is not a "breath prayer" with all due respect. It is simply a plea to God from a broken sinner. Notice the publican does not REPEAT the plea over and over again (vain repetitions) as Warren suggests we should do. Please research Warren's involvement in, and promotion of, Contemplative "Prayer" (A Time of Departing by Ray Yungen is a good place to start). Lastly, I should have clarified my comment on Statements of Faith; they are only as good as the preaching/teaching they produce. Darren, please do not dismiss the warnings about Warren. Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/24/06 10:47:07 AM
Age 39, TX
Jimmy: Lets look at the author of this article and his church. The website is http://twincityfellowship.com/ministries.php. They advertise with a website about things they offer and even events with free food and music. I am sure they have pews or chairs and hymnals or music on an overhead or big screen. They probably have greeters at the door and plates for offering. Are pews and hymnals in the Bible? I think not, but what is biblical are believers devoted to the apostles teaching, and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and prayer (Acts 2:42). I am sure Pastor DeWaays church does what they do to feed their flock and share Christ with unbelievers. Is the food and music designed to reach out to their community or are they selling out to be sensitive to seekers. All churches are seeker sensitive to some degree and some churches have mistakenly gone too far to reach out to their community. I have served in churches in Russia that meet in a home with 25 members and we would advertise by word of mouth that we were having a picnic to reach out to the lost in that community and for fellowship with the members. In Russia, the lost are afraid to go to the church for fear of persecution so we take the church to them. Were we being seeker-sensitive? This is the Celtic Way of Evangelism. If a church does not violate Scripture, we should have no problem with their style. If a church is doing something unbiblical, then we have something do call them out on, but if we just dont like it because it is not within our tradition, we have no stance upon which to criticize them. The breath prayer is unbiblical when it becomes a mindless and meaningless chant. How many churches today practice litanies, or read from the Book of Common Prayer over and over. What about singing the same line of a hymn over and over? Are those breath prayers? The difference is in what you do with your mind. The point is that we are to pray without ceasing with a mind focused on God and not some altered state of consciousness. I am not in worship of Rick Warren nor do I want or desire to participate in his program. There is no man who I follow 100%. I probably read more of John Piper than anyone else. My point in even discussing Rick Warren in this article is because Pastor DeWaay has devoted so much energy to being critical of him. I agree with some of his criticisms but he has gone too far in some areas and seems to now criticize everything Rick Warren does. I dont like the way Rick Warren uses some paraphrased versions and I think he missed opportunities to share the Gospel but he has impacted millions with the Gospel. There very few people who have been impacted negatively by a Purpose Driven Program, compared with thousands who have heard a Bible-centric Gospel through his teaching and become mature Christians. It is in that regard that I support him. A few mishaps or misjudgments on his part do not drive me to condemn him. I am especially disgusted with Christians on the Slice of Laodicea blog calling him the anti-christ. The Gospel is clearly written in his book the Purpose Driven Life with a God-centered direction and the fact that a million pastors see it and a few do not is strange to me. I am a student of church history and have read of many cults and heresies through the ages. The two elements you see are generally a denial of the authority of Scripture and a denial of salvation in Christ alone. I am seeing that among a few in the emergent church but I dont see it in Rick Warren Darren Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/26/06 10:25:54 AM
Age 34, MO
Darren,
You state, "In Russia, the lost are afraid to go to the church for fear of persecution so we take the church to them. Were we being seeker-sensitive?" No one is arguing against taking the gospel to the world. In fact, this is what we are arguing for.
You state, "...we are to pray without ceasing with a mind focused on God and not some altered state of consciousness." To pray without ceasing does not mean to employ vain repetitions. If this is not what Warren is communicating, why when speaking or writing on this subject does he recommend writings/writers which DO make altered states of conciousness the goal? (This is documented fact and if you email me I'll provide such). God does not have ADD, nor does he condone altered states of the mind. In all honesty, I'm beginning to wonder why you have chosen to not address certain other issues I have raised about Warren (i.e. his partnering with New Agers and New Age organizations, his endoresement of New Age writings/authors, his recommending of mystics and their literature, his teaching that "God is IN everything and everyone", etc...)?
In 2005 (Pew Magazine), Warren stated, "The word 'fundamentalist' actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity." [Rick Warren, Pew Magazine 2005], etc...)
I'm sure you are aware of the Five Fundamentals that this document laid out. For those who don't know, they are; 1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, 2. The Virgin Birth, 3. The Blood Atonement, 4. The Bodily Resurrection Of Christ, 5. The inerrancy of the scriptures. Darren, according to Scripture, are any of these five doctrines "legalistic" or a "narrow view of Christianity"? Since Warren thinks this way about one, some, or all of the five fundamentals, is he really "God-centered" in his doctrine as you suggest? In light of these facts, is his a "Bible-centric Gospel" as you suggest? Jimmy Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/26/06 04:07:38 PM
Age 39, TX
Jimmy: As I said before, I don't agree with everything Rick Warren does, so why would I defend everything he does. My original post referenced Warren to make the point that Pastor DeWaay goes out of his way to criticize him. Some are valid criticisms but some are not. In the same way he is misapplying Scripture by accusing all seeker-senstive churches of quenching the spirit because. If he were to say some seeker-sensitive churches, I would have no problem. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/27/06 02:47:13 PM
Age 34, MO
Darren, this will be my last response to you on this subject, as I am convinced we have convered the topic well.
Sadly though, I find your position on Warren so common these days amongst professing Christians. It amounts to "eat the meat, spit out the bones" reasoning. If we were discussing "non-essential to salvation doctrine" you would have scriptural footing to stand on. As we have seen however, this is not the case when Warren finds fault with essential to salvation doctrine. Thanks for the discussion.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables." (2 Tim. 4:3,4) Click here to reply to this post
Re: Is this really accurate?
Posted On: 07/18/06 01:58:22 PM
Age 68, FL
Any church body that loses its focus on the CROSS, the shed blood, the inerant word of God, and God's love for us and the Great Commission is just playing social club church. There is nothing more convincing than the pwerful word of God in every situation. When Jesus is lifted up all men will be drawn to Him. That IS the Holy Spirit working. We humans think we can add phsychology to make it more palatable and it only waters down God's intent for us. The truth of the word shared in LOVE is freeing!!!! Click here to reply to this post
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