Recently, on Ingrid Schlueter’s Web site hereBeth Moore denies that she promotes approaches to prayer that have Eastern overtones. The issue arose from her participation on the Be Still DVD which has been critiqued on this site by Ingrid and then Brian Flynn. Brian and I viewed a segment of Beth Moore on that DVD. We found disconcerting her poor understanding of Exodus 33:7-11, the passage she uses as her proof text. In her discussion of Moses’ tent of meeting she proposes that each believer can have their own tent of meeting where they can go to have two way conversations with God.
Commenting on Exodus 33:7-11, Moore states: “It says all of them could have approached, but as Moses approached they would stand back and watch.” Then she implies that people are just standing back when they could have their own tent of meeting with God. Then she claims:
“The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.” That is part of contemplative prayer. When we sit back and realize that it is not just that we have something to say to God, it’s that God has something He has to say to us . . .I want to be in that tent of meeting.
Every believer, according to Moore, can have a private non-literal tent of meeting in which God will come and speak to him or her.
This claim introduces serious theological problems. Let us first examine the claim that it was God’s intention that every Israelite enter the tent of meeting. This is simply false. Moses was uniquely the mediator of the Old Covenant. God chose to speak His authoritative words to Moses alone. God said that it was good that only Moses heard God’s voice: “This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well’” (Deut. 18:16, 17). In context Deuteronomy 18 was about prohibiting divination. God spoke to them through Moses and promised to send a future prophet like Moses; and when God sent that prophet, they should listen to Him (that prophet was Jesus; see Deut. 18:9-19; other passages in the New Testament claim Jesus was the one Moses predicted). Several Old Testament passages show that God spoke to Moses alone directly (Deut. 5:30, 31; Exo. 19:21-23; Exo. 20:19-21; Deut. 34:10).
When Moses’ unique role was challenged some very bad things happened to the challengers. In Numbers 12, Miriam and Aaron said this: “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as wellAnd the Lord heard it” (Num. 12:2). God called them out to the tent of meeting, and the cloud came down to the doorway of the tent. The result was, after God spoke about Moses’ unique role, Miriam was leprous (see Num. 12:2-10). In Leviticus 10, Nadab and Abihu tried to do things their own way and they died. In Numbers 16, Korah started a protest movement that denied Moses’ unique role and all who participated and their families dropped directly into Sheol (Num. 16:1-33). For good reason the people stayed at their own tents when Moses entered the tent of meeting—theydid not want to die! Moore’s claim that God wanted them all to enter and receive personal revelations from God is false.
The New Testament makes it clear there is only one legitimate tent of meeting: Christ. Jesus, Peter, James and John ascended a mount in Mark 9; and Jesus was transfigured. During this event, Moses and Elijah appeared and were talking to Jesus. Here, three people who were God’s authoritative spokespersons, stood on one mount. So Peter determined that they should build three tabernacles (tents of meeting). Why? So they would have three places they could go to enquire of the Lord. But what happened? “Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, ‘This My beloved Son, listen to Him!’ And all at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone” (Mark 9:4b, 5). The phrase “listen to Him” alludes to Deuteronomy 18 and shows that Jesus is the prophet Moses predicted. God provides but one tent of meeting—Jesus Himself. And that tent would not remain pitched on earth (John 1:14 says Jesus “tabernacled” among us).
The book of Hebrews elaborates on this. God has spoken through Jesus Christ in full and final revelation (Heb. 1:1, 2; Heb. 2:1-3 tells us that His apostles gave us Jesus’ authoritative words). Jesus is our High Priest who passed through the heavens and sits at the right hand of God where He carries out His mediatorial role. Hebrews 8:1, 2 claims that the true tabernacle is in heaven and was pitched by God, not man. This claim is repeated in Hebrews 9:11, 12. The entire book of Hebrews is about Christ’s unique role and warnings against apostasy for those who think they can come to God by some way other than Christ (in their case going back to the temple in Jerusalem and the earthly high priest and the blood of animals).
Hebrews also tells us the only way to draw near to God: through Christ who is in heaven and can only be seen by faith (Heb. 10:22; Heb. 11:1). All believers have the privilege of access to the throne of grace (Heb. 4:16). But there they find help in their time of need—not new, personal revelations.
The New Testament promises that if we come to God on His terms through Christ in prayer, He will listen. It does not promise us our own new words from God. The contemplative prayer movement wants what God is not offering: a way to feel closer to God and gain personal revelations. God has offered His Son so that we may draw near to God, not feel near to God. Many who are on the road to Hell feel near to God. Many who are truly saved sometimes do not feel near to God. There is nothing in Hebrews that promises we will feel near to God. To draw near is to come to God through faith in Christ and His once for all shed blood, and abide by faith in the terms of the covenant. To draw near is to have access to the throne of grace in prayer.
Beth Moore teaches error on the Be Still DVD. She claims that in the Old Testament God wanted each person to enter the Tent of Meeting; this is false. The tent of meeting that Moses entered was a precursor to the Tabernacle. Only the high priest on the Day of Atonement could enter the holy place in God’s presence and even he could do so only under the terms God revealed to Moses. Moore claims that we can each have a tent of meeting; this is false. There is one tent of meeting, it is Jesus Christ who entered the heavenly tabernacle and sits at the right hand of God. God commanded us to listen to Him, not to seek new information from God that He has not already spoken through Christ and His apostles. Moore wants to distance herself from mysticism, but her own words dangerously mislead people. Rather than pointing people to illicit tents of meeting not ordained by God, she should have pointed them to Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant, the blood atonement, and the throne of grace. Being dissatisfied with what God has provided is very dangerous, as certain individuals in the Old Testament discovered for themselves.
For further study on this issue, I have provided an audio clip of Beth Moore’s tent of meeting claim, followed by an my exposition of Scripture from the Old and New Testaments explaining the true significance of the tent of meeting and warnings about unbiblical techniques: here
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Thanks Bob for doing the research and taking the time to sift through this material. The bible says that a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That is why we need to search the scripture to see if these things (teachings) are so. False teachings infect the body of believers and distract the people from Jesus and the Great Commission. Contemplative prayer's ultimate effect is to draw Christians away from sharing the Gospel and into a seductive practice of seeking spiritual experiences. We have all eternity to be close to God, what God wants now is labors for the harvest.
Be committed to the Word and not people. Everyone is so enamored with pop Christian Teachers. But remember the bible teaches us that cursed is the man who trusts in man and blessed in the man who trusts in God. These teachers, including Bob, are all sinners saved by grace. It's our job, as the audience, to compare what they say with the Word of God. Otherwise we, sinners, are putting our trust in teachers, also sinners, on how to be a good Christian. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 12/07/06 09:48:41 PM
Age 67, MA
I was recently asked if I knew anything about Beth Moore & her teachings. I have had some info & was aware of the Be Still DVD. Rather than undertake writing a long critique I decided to send Bob DeWaay's thoughtful & intelligent article on to the questioner. In the process I checked out the feedback which was posted.
Beth Moore teaches in a public venue, therefore it is to be expected that articles that critique her teachings & position are also in a public venue, yet there were all kinds of complaints about going to her privately, misrepresenting what is taught in the Bible. I suspect the same inability to spell and be articulate extends to comprehension. How did Paul handle Peter ? I suffered through all the postings on this site, although it was wearisome. There were many complaints about DeWaay 'attacking' her. Disagree and it's an attack.
People had great trouble sticking with the facts that DeWaay presented and answering the specific issues addressed.
Many of the respondents can't spell or present a lucid argument. It's all about 'feelings', "shooting fellow Christians", conjecturing, personal opinion, and much trivial baloney. Anything but what does God's Word say ?
If Beth Moore truly was fooled & really cared, she would have withdrawn the DVD. She can humbly apologise until she is blue in the face, but if she's still making money on it she's promoting it. That's the nitty gritty folks.
I can't tell you how tired I am of popular 'teachers' and the silly, emotional women who flock to them. One smart respondent said something to the effect of get a Bible,a Bible dictionary, and a concordance & study for yourself. Way to go! Put these people out of business...that's what it is, business. $$$$
" Oh, but so & so Bible teacher has done so much for me " Like what ? Die on the cross to save you ? Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth ? Matthew 7:22-23 " Many will say to Me in that day, Lord,Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name ? and in Your Name have cast out devils ? and in Your Name done many wonderful works ? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from Me you that work iniquity."
Get rid of your dependency on people. No more pacifiers, no more blankies, no more crutches, but study to show yourself approved. You can use a Bible for that, you don't need Jane Does latest book on it. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 01/14/07 12:23:31 AM
Age 45, IL
AaaaaMEN! All Bible teachers and Pastors teachings, books, etc, should be stacked up against the Bible. Period. If they don't match up, it should be publicly noted.The books, appearances, tv shows, etc, are public. Look how many people have purchased and seen these products.
The Apostal Paul didn't fail to make note of wrong teachings and false teachers. I am sick to death of all these "Bible experts" who don't know the Bible. Too many "Christians" today are seeking some new revelation or feeling or experience when they should get to know their Lord and Savior Jesus and The Bible. Yes, The B-I-B-L-E, that's the book for me.
If Christians weren't so Biblically ignorant today, there would not be all this emergent, purpose driven, and just plain unGodly nonsense going on. And, don't tell me I am being judgemental, I am just agreeing with what God has said. Let God be true and every man a liar. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 12/26/06 06:22:39 PM
Age 59, TN
I'm thinking it isn't just about the $$$$. I just checked her website and the "Be Still" DVD is not listed for sale on the website's store. Maybe she does really care what she's feeding the sheep. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/19/06 03:26:30 PM
Age 52, NC
Pastor DeWaay,
At first, I was astounded by the accusations you received about being judgemental. But as you know, this is the way the scripture is being improperly taught these days. After doing Beth's study covering this topic (judging), my group leader stood in front of our group as if gagged by fear of being judged herself when confronted by the fact that the subject had only been partially covered and if one would only keep reading the passage, you would find instruction on "How To Make Judgements" within the body and the need to do so. I can't think of a better tool in the hands of Satan than to tie our hands when trying to confront error. One certainly can't be a good Berean that way. After completing all but one of Beth's studies, I have learned a lot. However I also found a need to be discerning and not accept everything just because she "said so". I tried to separate the Biblical facts and questions from the psychological "how do you feel?, what do you think?, what would you have done?" that were becoming more prevelant in her later studies. I am very thankful that her studies caused me to study and question Biblical subjects in much more depth, especially when something wasn't exactly right. Maybe that will be the case here also. It is certainly drawing attention to a practice that was sneaking in without anyone being aware of the error. Thank you for putting yourself in the line of fire! These posts make it obvious that error and delusion are rampant in the "church". We need your discernment and willingness to defend the faith. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/19/06 10:20:03 AM
Age 47, NM
I find it very offensive to myself and others, based on your pious article. I personally have done several of Beth Moore's studies and have never questioned her accuracy on her information. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have the background information with her. She has presented her studies in a format that uses scripture to back her up. You, evidently, don't check deep enough in the scripture to see that between the Old Testament and the New Testament that God has never been untouchable, or unreachable. There is a vast difference in the idea of the "Tent of Meeting" and the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle. As the previous feedback indicates, there are other scriptures to prove that what Beth stated was true. There was often a Tent of Meeting put up outside the camp so ANYONE could go into their Tent of Meeting, or their closet to aproach God. He appeared to Moses, however, that doesn't mean that he was unapproachable. I really wished before you had printed this article that you had done your reasearch before attacking Beth Moore as you have done. I also believe that one Christian should not be attacking another Christian in such a way that you have done. Beth, if you are reading these, keep your chin up and keep on ministering to those of us that need the truth spoken. We are a generation that needs the word taught such as you teach. I have grown so much through Beth Moore's teachings that you, Bob, should be ashamed to print such an article. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/18/06 01:03:39 PM
Age 35, TX
This article reeks of a smug, pious attitude so I intend to answer it in the same tone. "Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the "tent of meeting." Anyone inquiring of the LORD would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp." -- Exodus 33:7 Hm. Did I miss something or did that verse just say ANYONE? No. That sounds like EVERYBODY was invited to me. How about you? In all your Old Testament research how did you miss this verse from that came from the SAME CHAPTER, sir? The fact is God DID desire for His people to come to Him then, just as He does today though the way was not yet opened. Justice, mercy, and faith were the heart of the Mosaic Covenant. There was a vast difference between the Tent of Meeting and the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses. You know that. Stop trying to pick fights with your fellow sheep and level your guns where they belong. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/20/06 03:28:07 PM
Age 34, MO
TX,
Why, if you think the "tone" of this author is "smug and pious", would you choose to intentionally adopt the same supposed tone in responding to him? Where in Scripture do you find this reasoning/approach of yours taught? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/21/06 05:57:32 PM
Age 35, TX
Because that is precisely the way that Jesus answered the Pharisees -- those "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel". (Mt. 23) Jesus met the meek with meekness and He met the pious, religious with the same level of judgment they were meting out. "With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright. With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury. And the afflicted people thou wilt save: but thine eyes are upon the haughty, that thou mayest bring them down." 2 Sa. 22:26-28 Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/22/06 11:10:41 PM
Age 34, MO
TX,
The Bible is replete with passages instructing Christians to judge DOCTRINE (teachings). In the case of Moore and her teaching on the Tent of Meeting, this is exactly what Dewaay did; he tested her TEACHING in light of Scripture and made a judgement about it. What you are obviously angry with is Dewaay's conclusion. Fine, debate it with him. I'm confident, having heard one of his debates and read many articles of his, that he'll be gracious with you (but firm in his convictions). Click here to reply to this post
It is very rare that I defend Beth Moore but I really think Bob Dewaay has done a hatchet job on her.
On the positive I must commend him for pointing out the error of Moore on Exodus 33:7-11. He is right that Moore wrongly interpreted the text.
The problem though is when Deeway states,
"Moore claims that we can each have a tent of meeting; this is false. There is one tent of meeting, it is Jesus Christ who entered the heavenly tabernacle and sits at the right hand of God. God commanded us to listen to Him, not to seek new information from God that He has not already spoken through Christ and His apostles."
Here he over reaches. Moore was simply talking about the need for everyone to have some quiet time with the Lord. She never denies coming we are to come to Christ. Her statement actually implies that we are to find time to listen to Christ in prayer through His Word. Dewaay takes a minor error of Moore's and builds a strawman to imply she is bordering on heresy.
Deeway further states,
"Moore wants to distance herself from mysticism, but her own words dangerously mislead people. Rather than pointing people to illicit tents of meeting not ordained by God, she should have pointed them to Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant, the blood atonement, and the throne of grace. Being dissatisfied with what God has provided is very dangerous, as certain individuals in the Old Testament discovered for themselves."
He takes a brief audio clip and again implies Moore is denying Christ. In her statement she in no way implies there is no other way to God but through Jesus. He takes a minor error in her interpretation of Exo. 33:7-11 and builds a strawman to accuse Moore of heresy.
I think such attacks are uncalled for and needs to be repented of. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/16/06 04:07:21 PM
Age 27, TX
I was looking at Beth's website, and found these interesting.
Dealing with cults :
The Watchman Fellowship
This is a Christian research and apologetics ministry focusing on new religious movements, cults, the occult and the New Age. They serve the Christian and secular community as a resource for cult education, counseling, and non-coercive intervention. This site is a wonderful resource to learn what certain cults believe and how their doctrines contradict Scripture. http://www.watchman.org/
Mission statement for Beth Moore's "Living Proof Ministries
http://www.lproof.org/mission.asp Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/16/06 03:44:05 PM
Age 27, TX
I just found out that Beth Moore's main office is only fourty three miles from me (same street as I'm on, so I looked it up.) I'm going to write to her and who knows, she might have someone write back or write back herself if she has the time. If she does, I'll post what she says (although it's unlikely she would have time to resond.) Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/16/06 08:58:02 PM
Age 34, MO
Sounds good that someone else is going to write her. Would you mind asking her why she endorses the works of Dallas Willard, Brian McClaren, Richard Foster, etc.. in light of the DOCUMENTED FACT that these folks teach and promote Eastern Mystical "prayer" cloaked in Christian terminology? I'd truly like to understand why she does this. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/17/06 07:38:22 AM
Age 27, TX
I intend on asking her if she KNEW what they reportedly believe/teach and if she initially knew they would be on the DVD (one of the interviews I read indicated she did not, which was poor discernment to ask/research before being a part of such a project.)
Anyway, I still feel that the article was uncalled for BUT perhaps she will more carefully consider next time what she puts her name on. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 01:06:59 PM
Age 34, MO
I can't help but conclude that many commenters here are simply unaware of some facts. In no way am I suggesting lack of discernment, but rather lack of information that is essential to clearly understanding the problem with Ms. Moore's endorsement of the "Be Still" DVD.
FIRST: Ms. Moore to date does indeed endorse the contemplative spirituality as communicated by herself and the other participants (i.e. Richard Foster) in the "BE Still" DVD. Should anyone doubt this, please read her ministries' most recent statement which can be found at http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorethumbsup.htm
SECOND: Now that we know, by her own admission, that Ms. Moore endorses the contemplative spirituality of Foster for example, let's call him to the witness stand to tell us about this spirituality Ms. Moore thinks is ok.:
Foster: "I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance,". "While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on that, there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection." ("Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home" by Richard Foster)
Now read Brian Flynn's ("Running Against the Wind") biblical responce to Foster's misguided spirituality: "Then why do it, Mr. Foster? Why would God put me in a position to fend for myself in this unknown spiritual realm surrounded by spiritual beings that are not in cooperation with God and his way? He would not."
To the commenters who are desparately trying to defend Ms. Moore's endorsement of the "Be Still" DVD: Do you see the problem now? Please keep in mind that this DVD is being widely circulated within Christendom, and many Christians who love Beth Moore, could likely embrace the dangerous spirituality of Foster thanks in part to her endorsement. What say you? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 06:17:23 PM
Age 49, MS
This present realm we live in IS a dangerous realm. Peter tells us that our adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. This battle with the devil IS a spiritual battle, it happens here in this very time and place, and we cannot effectively protect ourselves without employing spiritual weapons. These weapons are described in Ephesians 6:10-18: Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints." MO, it's NOT our choice whether to go there or not. We ARE there, and have been since the eating of the forbidden fruit. God did not send us there--we sent ourselves. But, He has NOT left us to fight it alone. He gave us tools and a Helper/Comforter/Instructor/Protector whom many folks effectively render impotent in their daily lives. He will give us as much help as we allow Him to. John 14:26: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Then He tells us that we do not have to be crippled by fear: "Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." Finally, just before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed a magnificent prayer for His people: "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world...I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me...I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost...I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one...I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." (John 17:6-26 ESV) Listen again folks, to the prayer of Jesus: " I am praying for them." And He is still praying for us like that. His people do not have to be so fearful of negative spiritual influences that we have to deny the Holy Spirit His ordained place in our lives. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 09:59:32 PM
Age 34, MO
MS,
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit leads us into truth. If I were arguing this point your dissertation would have been warranted.
I am certainly not operating out of "fear" but rather out of loving concern for those who may come face to face with the dangerous spirituality of Foster and other contemplatives.
We are commanded in Scripture (Jude 3 for example) to "earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the Saints". That "faith" does not include the Eastern Mysticism which is blatantly being taught by Foster and others. In conclusion, to warn others about this danger is not to operate out of "fear", but rather love for one's neighbor (Remember that commandment?). Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 04:45:41 AM
Age 49, MS
Contrary to your statement, my "dissertation" is warranted because the theme from Mr. DeWaay and his supporters throughout this thread has been the assertion that God no longer interacts with His peoples in certain ways that HE SAYS HE DOES in the pages of His Book. On Mr. DeWaay's website (I never heard of HIM before, either, but he seems to condemn most everyone of Chritian note) I see a statement that he was taught in seminary not to believe anything that doesn't come from the pages of Scripture, and yet Scripture bears witness of these things that apparently fall outside his comfort zone because they say, "I operate in this manner." Well, it can't be both ways, so he has to explain away the Scripture that say, "I do it this way." So he says, "He no longer acts in this way...or that." He has bunches of folks who back him up, but when you ask for the Scriptural support for such statements, no one delivers. So we have Scripture that says "Be still, and know that I am God", and "Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him," and we are told to do that invites demonic influences. The Lord Jesus Himself tells us to go into our room and close the door for prayer, and sets the example by rising before sunrise and going to a solitary place to pray and we are told that is unacceptable practice, and I am not really sure as to the logic of it, but it's related to somebody's decision that Scripture didn't really mean it when it says everyone who wanted to speak to the Lord went out to the Tent of Meeting back in the days of Exodus. According to this fellow, my copy of the Scripture is wrong when it says "And EVERYONE who sought the Lord would go out to the tent of meeting." Now, I don't read Hebrew, but I have a whole lot of different translations, and they ALL say the same thing--EVERYONE, so I have to believe it's there. And true to His nature, if God put it there, it's there for a reason. I believe it's there because EVERYONE who believed Him did go to the tent of meeting. Perhaps they did have to speak to Him through the priests at that time. I don't know, because there were an awful lot of folks back in the days before Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice resulted in the rending of the veil who prayed fervent prayers that were heard and answered. Upon His death that symbolic rending of the veil that separated the Holy of Holies signified that we can now go directly to the Father without an intermediary, then our interaction with Him can be even MORE intimate today than the Tent was. This is all basic Christian stuff that I have gleaned from the pages of Scripture since childhood. And suddenly there's some fellow telling me that I can't approach the Lord in the quiet of my room, sit still before him and meditate on Him and His word, and wait on Him as Scripture instructs me to, because to do so is to invite the influence of demons? And if the Holy Spirit should come and influence and instruct and teach and guide me as Jesus promised He would...if I listen to Him, then I am opening myself up to an invasion of demons? Ah, you guys just make me sad. Click here to reply to this post
To Ms
I fear you make a mistake in thinking God spoke to Everyone who came to the Tabernacle.They may have gone out there but read on and put it in context. The people stood at their tent doors until Moses entered the Tabernacle then the Lord appeared to Moses and spoke to him, not all of the people.This would make Moses the intermediary just as Christ now is for us.You say we can all go directly to God without an intermediary, not true. Jesus is the only way to God, we are to pray in his name, he is our intermediary.
Your remarks about be still, go into your room alone, go to a solitary place are also off the mark because in none of those scriptures are we told to recite mantras, empty our minds, or go into a trance state which is what Foster and friends are teaching. Please go back to your Bible and look up all scriptures relating to prayer.
In His Name, SW Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 06:10:38 PM
Age 49, MS
I am not "desperately trying to defend" Beth Moore, only trying to correct erroneous ideas that condemn the practice of a clearly Biblical prayer life. I have seen people state unequivocably that God does not speak directly to his people, that praying in stillness before Him is unbiblical, and that we are to have no private place of prayer. Yet, when asked for Scriptural evidence in support of that position, no one has presented it. On the other hand, several people have presented substantial Scripture in support of: 1)seeking a place of solitude for personal prayer, 2)being still before Him for the purpose of that prayer, 3)permission to approach the Father personally in prayer, and 4)confirmation of the many ministries of the Holy Spirit in the ordering our lives. I very much value my copies of the Scripture for foundational information and for instruction. The pages of this very same Bible tell me that God still works actively through the voice of the Holy Spirit in combination with those pages of Scripture to communicate His will for our individual lives. Isn't it time to read and accept the Whole Thing and quite ignoring and discounting the parts we don't care for? Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 10:12:31 PM
Age 34, MO
MS,
I find it interesting that you didn't deal with Foster's quote that I provided. Why is this? Will you do it now please?
Specifically, where does the Bible admonish us to use a method of "prayer" that puts us in contact with demonic spirits?
Thanks MS. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 06:03:22 AM
Age 49, MS
So, Foster is the real target here? If you want to take Foster on specifically, fine. But if you want to attack someone, it's a good thing to attack them using as basis the work in which he/she erred. Otherwise, you have folks like me who examine the evidence for themselves before they leap to the conclusion you want them to leap to. When I bought the video and it did not promote Eastern meditation and mysticism as I was led to believe it did, then somebody lost whatever bit of credibility he might have had with me. Because that's been done here. What is described as "Christian contemplative prayer" in the context of this vidwo and mysticism are two different things. The practice of prayer described on this video is NOT mysticism. Frankly, I don't think Foster's observation and warning that demonic spirits inhabiting the spiritual realm are that far off the mark. Without reading the quote in context, I really don't know what he's advocating as far as prayer, so I will not comment further on that. I certainly cannot condemn him on the basis of this video because I found what is described on it to be Scriptural and in accordance with my life-long beliefs gleaned from my Presbyterian and Baptist upbringing as well as my personal reading and interpretation of Scripture as led by the Holy Spirit. I have learned in my many years of listening to such as this not to pre-judge before I examine the evidence for myself. I have learned that all too often, folks will take a sentence or two out of context of the whole and make it appear as though the person had said something he really didn't. One feels awfully foolish and awful when one falls into such a trap, so I try to abstain from participating in such a partnership. As to demonic influence, my previous answer WAS in response to his comment. We are in a battle, and it is not a nice one. If we refuse the tutelage of the Holy Spirit because we are afraid that to open ourselves to Him we might also open ourselves up to demons, then we miss our greatest Help. We need not fear that, because Jesus Himself intercedes for us day and night. He is not going to let us come to harm. What I see happening in this thread is an attack on true Biblical prayer life under the guise of an attack on mysticism. What I'm not sure of is just exactly why it is happening. My purpose is to let folks know that Biblical error is being promoted here under the guise of avoiding mysticism. In the Name of Love of my fellow man. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 04:39:24 AM
Age 49, MS
Can you tell me, have you watched this video in it's entirety? Or are you simply relying on others for their assessment of its contents? I don't know a thing about what Foster has said elsewhere, but I went and bought this video because of this discussion. I watched it in its entirety, and mysticism or prayer to demonic spirits or in the presence of demonic spirits or inviting of demonic spirits or HOWEVER else you want to phrase it, is NOT what is addressed in this video by ANY of the speakers who appear. Neither is creating an intellectual or spiritual "vacuum" of the mind just waiting to be filled by demons. The prayer that is mentioned on this video is quiet, get-away-from-the-rat-race, go-to-your-room-and-close-the-door, spend-time-with-the-Lord prayer that is centered on Jesus and Scripture. There was no mention of mind clearing or humming or any of that other stuff that is being alleged is the subject of this DVD. I don't think I missed it because I was looking for the mysticism that was supposed to be there. I am saying that if you are charging that this IS the focus of this DVD, then you are misrepresenting its contents. What Mr. Foster has done elsewhere, I really can't say, because I don't have a clue who he is. I still don't know WHICH participant he was. However, he did not say anything contrary to Scripture on this viceo because nothing was said on this video that is unscriptural. Click here to reply to this post
It was recently brought to my attention that I had not answered some questions on this thread that were posed to me. Sorry about that, it was not intentional. Life gets busy.
MS,
No I have not viewed the Be Still DVD. I have read the statements verbatum that were made on the DVD however. Here's something to consider: When Foster, for example mentions contemplative prayer (CP) on the Be Still DVD, it is reasonable to conclude he is talking about the same "CP" he has discussed in detail in other works of his, which I have read (you may email me at owcgallatin@hotmail.com to get the names of these books/articles, page numbers, etc..) I doubt he would be promoting two different kinds of CP all the while calling them both the same name, would you? That said, the CP he has discussed in great detail in other works is in fact EASTERN MYSTICISM. No one who has been involved in Trasendental Meditation (New Agers for example) would argue this point. The fact that he didn't go into the same detail in discussing CP on the Be Still DVD as he does in other works (which you admit you've not read) is why individuals like yourself are confused as to what the "fuss" is all about. Enter Beth Moore. Because the informed know that Foster is promoting Eastern Mysticism, some have provided Ms. Moore with the evidence of such, yet she remains steadfast in her endorsement of the project. No person is a target here. The TEAHCHING and ENDORSEMENT of this dangerous mysticism IS the target. One must at times however name the names of those who, after having been given ample infomation and warned of the danger, continue in the endorsement and/or teaching of heresy. Click here to reply to this post
I can give you an example of how it happens. I have not listened to the DVD but it is my understanding that Jan Johnson is featured on the DVD. I was at a seminar and she was one of the featured speakers. She led us in some quirky prayer session. We were supposed to breathe a certain way and we were shown how to empty ourselves with hands down and look to God with hands up. All I remember is hands up, hands down. She had written a biography of Madame Guyon (Mystic) and I read it. I thought it was interesting so I began reading Madame Guyon books which are essentially manuals on transcendental meditation. I don't know about you but I'm glad somebody warned me before I attracted the attention of a deceiving spirit. Richard Foster has links to Zen teachers on his website. That should give us a clue. What fellowship hath light with darkness? The danger of the DVD is when people get more interested and begin reading the books of these people that's when they will be at risk of being led astray. I cannot believe people are interpreting these comments that we're not allowed to pray. I pray every day.I fasted twice this week over a big decision. I have 2 prayer partners that I pray with --one on Monday, another on Wednesday. But, I would never use the New Age techniques advocated by these people on the DVD. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 10:11:24 PM
Age 34, MO
MS,
I find it interesting that you didn't deal with Foster's quote that I provided. Why is this? Will you do it now please?
Specifically, where does the Bible admonish us to use a method of "prayer" that puts us in contact with demonic spirits?
Thanks MS. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 08:50:35 AM
Age 27, TX
MS DID respond, that's what the whole thing about putting on the whole armour of God was about. Yes, there is potential durring such a prayer life that you could be approached by demons. I know a medium who even warns this and suggests when people meditate that they pray a prayer of protection. I'm sure, since it's his line of work, that he encounters demonic spirits all the time. Thankfully, we as Christians recognize that what he is doing is dangerous, even with a 'prayer of protection' and is forbidden by God.
So, back to contemplative prayer. Satan comes to us in various forms, wither we are 'being still' or not. Personally, I have found far many more attacks from Satan on my mind/spirit when I am busy, not when I am still and silent before God. Often when I pray I find my mind wandering. IS that an attack of Satan? Sometimes it might be, but like I said- most thoughts that I have that are not Scriptural come when I am busy or stressed and NOT when I am meditating on the Lord. When they do come they are quickly recognizable and quickly cast away. But then, since I DO put on the whole armour of God, perhaps that's why it is so easy to spot and deflect the 'firey darts of satan.'
Sarah T Click here to reply to this post
Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 05:01:23 AM
Age 52, VA
For those of you who are interested in how God speaks. Here's a short online essay for you to consider. It's titled "No Voices in my Head."
http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/V/voicehead.html Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 02:11:42 PM
Age 49, MS
Well, lets look at some of the ways the book of Acts records that the Lord spoke to early Christians. Remember when Philip was sent to speak to the "Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court officail of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. Scripture says (Acts 8:29) "And the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go over and join this chariot,'". He was near the chariot in question at the time. Now the Scripture doesn't say anything about the volume with which this instruction was issued, but given the setting and the fact that nothing was said about a response to the voice from the people surrounding him, I think it likely that the voice that the Spirit used to speak to Philip was a pretty quiet, probably very personal one. Next, we see the thunderous confrontation between the Lord and Saul/Paul. Following that was the VISION though which the Lord spoke to Ananias. I can't imagine the response here if someone should say that the Lord had appeared to them in a vision. I might even be questioning of that. But yet, here proof from the Scriptures that this is a legitimate means by which the Lord has communicated to His servants. Next in chapter 10, we see again a vision, the angel of the Lord appearing to Cornelius. Later in that same chapter, Peter went up on the rooftop and fell into a trance. While in this trance he saw the vision of the sheet with all the animals and heard a voice that he apparently recognized as being the Lord's. While he was pondering the meaning of the vision, Scripture tells us that he heard the Spirit say to him that three men were looking for him and that he was to go and accompany them because He (the Spirit) had sent them. Again, no mention of the volume of the communication. Once again, however, I think it likely it was a pretty quiet communication because of the setting in which it occured--lots of people around and no mention of a reaction among those people to hearing a disembodied voice. Through the yielding of these men to the instruction received through voices that came to them in visions, and through their obeyance to the voice of the Holy Spirit, however it was spoken, the Gospel was presented to the family and friends of Cornelius--all Gentiles. The result was that they believed and were saved. Next, in Chapter 13, we find an assembly of believers worshiping the Lord and fasting. Within the context of that meeting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Again, no mention of volume of the communication, but because of the context, it's obvious that it was either loud enough for them all to hear or the Holy Spirit spoke to each of them individually in unison. It's not probable that it was a thunderously booming voice as accompanied Paul's conversion, though. I could go on, but space here is limited. But the fellow who wrote this discussion obviously didn't consider the book of Acts when he did his research. By saying that the Lord doesn't speak in these ways he discounts a largely significant part of the book of Acts, which records the birth of Christ's church. Again I ask that if anyone has SCRIPTURAL evidence that He ceased to speak to us by these means at whatever point in history, please post those references here. Because I can't find them and I have looked. Please don't give intellectual arguments because those are the products of human reasoning and are frequently erroneous. I personally do not think He has quit speaking to those who believe Him to be who He says He is. I think that what HAS changed since the days of the Acts is THE BELIEVER'S level of faith, THE BELIEVER'S commitment to Him, THE BELIEVER'S willingness to be completely yielded to Him without regard to the influence of the world and without worrying about what the secular world might think. I also think we like to be the ones in control of our lives and our actions, and we don't like yielding that control to anyone, not even (and perhaps most especially) to the Lord. The modern church discounts a great deal of New Testament Scripture as being something that God "no longer does". Thus, we miss out on blessing and experiencing His immense power in our lives. 'Tis a shame. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 04:34:16 PM
Age 46, MN
Bob DeWaay is not disputing that God CAN give visions or dreams or speak through donkey's if He wishes. He is disputing that we are to "pursue" these methods to get His revelations. It is the equivalent of going to the stockyard to hear God. No, scriptures do not tell us to build a mystical tent of meeting in our minds - Beth Moore does. If she told us to get a new set of "Guidance Cards" so that we could get guidance from God, would this be OK. What if she sold fleeces? God can do anything He wishes - and He has told US how we are to pursue Him and it isn't in mystical tents. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 08:58:52 AM
Age 27, TX
Much of the discussion has turned away from the DVD and specifically focused on wither God moves the same today as He did before the cannonization of Scripture. But that's ok, because ultimately the question is being asked "Can we hear God's voice in contemplative prayer or is this mearly a vehicle for satan to attack the church?" Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/14/06 08:28:49 AM
Age 49, MS
Furthermore, what Beth Moore is credited with in the context of this video has is a misrepresentation of what the video actually says. There is no content regarding "mystical" anything on this video, except for a brief contrast and differentiation between the topic of their discussion of what they call "Christian Contemplative Prayer" and Eastern meditation. I challenge you not to take someone else's word for it--not even mine. Watch it for yourself. It will help you put this conversation in proper perspective. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 06:57:13 PM
Age 49, MS
Hi, I just went back and read my original post that you are replying to. Do you realize that the Scriptures I quoted are those describing the means by which the Lord chose to birth his CHURCH? And do you also realize you are calling His chosen methods for doing so "Stockyard" methods. Wow! That takes my breath away. You are braver than me, for sure. Click here to reply to this post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beth Moores Illicit Tent of Meeting
Posted On: 06/13/06 06:52:08 PM
Age 49, MS
Hi, MN. I'm curious, if you put so much emphasis on what Scripture says, then why don't you BELIEVE it? Take another read and pay attention to what IT says, not to what somebody tells you it says. He gave you a brain to use under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit to discern the meaning of the Scriptures. If you yield to Him, you will not be led astray. I have made numerous posts on this thread, and I have backed every statement I've made up with Scripture that stated plainly what it meant. That Scripture, much of it words directly from the mouth and example of Jesus Christ Himself, says that what Mr. DeWaay says is wrong. So I guess you get to choose whom you will believe is the authoritative figure here. As for me and my house, we choose to believe the Lord. He is my highest and final authority. Best wishes to you in the quest for Christian truth in Christ Jesus. Click here to reply to this post
While it was well written and entertaining, it lacked one very big element- Biblical proof that God does not talk to us.
I found his illustration of the angel telling one to go to Africa particularly interesting because God HAS called my husband and I to Africa AND YET most people insist God hasn't. The reasons? You can minister to people from other countries right here in Houston and because it is dangerous in Africa. I believed God was calling me to Kenya when I was in Bible College and I was told I was mistaken. Someone else came along and offered me a job in Kenya. A few months later someone else did the same. The following year Wycliffe Bible Translators gave us a series of tests to determine if you have a gift in languages and then begged me to join with them, saying that Swahili (the main language in Kenya) came very easily to me. Still, I resisted, I hesitated, I disobeyed. God was calling me, others were confirming it, and yet because my family insisted that I WAS NOT called to Africa, I did not go.
I have felt much regret over not going, and now again I have been asked to go to Kenya. God placed us in a church that has fourteen churches in Kenya, including an orpahanage which I am raising funds for. And my husband, who warned me before we married that he would NEVER be a missionary, pastor, elder sunday school teacher or have any leadership role in the church whatsoever now cannot wait to get to Kenya! He believes he is called to be a pastor, and a missionary as well. Now, I knew him way back when and I can say that this must be God changing his heart. In fact, he hates planes. He gets very ill and is in alot of pain but he wants to endure that for an 18 hour plane trip. Why? Because he hears God's voice and walks in His paths.
Oh, and by the way I have seen angels and two angels spoke to my family and rescued us from a mountain (we would have died up there if they hadn't.) Yet, there were no great messages from God. They just told us that we would be safe, that God would take care of us. While that message was very welcomed at that moment, it wasn't a great earth shattering revelation.
Sarah T Click here to reply to this post
